He's right though. No matter how many times it gets said, folks keep posting "I don't want any GMO seeds!" Like it's even possible to buy them.

Shows a real lack of understanding about what GMO seeds even means.

Dave

Burpee and Baker Creek Heirlooms are usually my first go-to sellers.

If people are selling you seed that says Non-GMO on them when GMO seeds are not available, what's that tell you about them? You actually make a very good point - it's 'organic' seed vendors who are CAUSING people to be concerned about GMO vegetable seeds - that don't exist. Personally, I would never buy from a vendor who engages in that kind of scare tactic to make a buck.

I think the vendors who mark their seeds non-GMO are doing it only because so many buyers are uninformed about it, and the sellers are just reassuring them, not trying to scare anybody.

I like Baker Creek for a wide variety of "weird" seeds/plant.

Pinetree Gardens has the best prices I've seen. Many of their seed packets are in the $1.50 range.

I like to support Sandhill Preservation because they're small and are trying to save a lot of different varieties. If you you're looking for sweet potato slips, they have hundreds! Ordering from them is like traveling back in time......no online ordering. You send a check in a old fashioned thing we used to call an envelope. But I love it!

I also try to support Southern Exposure Seed Exchange because they're small and near me so I figure those seeds will do well in my area.

But I always start with Pinetree because of the price and branch out from there.

I buy lots from a guy that used to work at Clemson and ran what used to be called the SC Foundation Seed. He separated from the university and got the business as part of the separation agreement. His seeds are absolutely wonderful. Packed in plastic zip top baggies inside paper envelopes. No info on the envelopes other than basic name of the veggie and germination test percentage (I think). I don't pay shipping for mine because he's local, but his prices are basically $2 for most things and $3 for some harder to find specialty seeds. He even has a lot of Nu Mex peppers cheaper than you can get them directly from the pepper institute. LOTS of heirloom veggies. And sweetpotato slips, but not such a large variety. He drives to somewhere in NC in May and picks them up himself in potted medium and plucks them just before packaging and mail delivery. About as fresh as you can possibly get. I haven't seen his current setup, but before he retired, the seeds were all kept in a refrigerated area. He knows his trade well. His business is now named Heavenly Seed. They also have lots of herb and flower seeds. Give them a look!

Here is a link that might be useful: Heavenly Seed

You guys want to make me spend all day looking at seeds! I know what I'm doing this weekend :) I do wish I had space to grow seedlings inside. At this point it's still all an experiement as we haven't even lived here a year. I'm just trying to plan a little better this year.

No one has directed any negative comments toward the OP. He/she is most likely just another victim of the massive amount of invalid info out there about GMOs.

But one can always hope that those who choose to require their seed be "non-GMO" will first take the time to inform themselves on the issue and so learn that their concerns are unfounded.

So let's not contribute to that GMO hysteria by arguing that "yes, you [home gardeners] can buy GMO seeds" and base that on the claim that Pioneer's non-GMO seed corn contained between 0.1%-0.5% of unapproved GMOs based on 2 tests done on small samples of commercial growers corn crops in 2 locations. That is at best statistically insignificant.

In fact the article linked is about CORN and only corn. Given that corn is the one vegetable most prone to transgenic crossing, it still shows less than 1% transgenic crossing in a few small samples.

And this doesn't even begin to address if that limited amount of transgenic crossing is dominant or recessive in its effects.

Dave

Without going into the morass about GMO, I'll try to answer the OP question about seed sources. Sandhill Preservation, Bakers Creek, Southern Exposure, High Mowing, Johnny's Selected Seed, and a ton of others. I set up this webpage with links to the various seed sites.

seed sources

DarJones

I wish I could 'like' Jon's post.

You cannot buy GMO seed for a home garden, however you can buy lots of seeds where the money goes to the GMO companies like Monsanto. If that bothers you, (it does me!) then buy from companies who do not sell any Seminis varieties. I prefer Fedco. Great prices and no wasted money, lots of OP choices and free shipping. Plus they are suing Monsanto to help organic farmers not get sued by Monsanto.
If Fedco has it I get it from them. If not I go to Baker's, Pinetree (last year of a few remaining Seminis seeds), and Sandhill mostly. They do not have much larger seed quantities I need to farm however. There are some other companies but they are expensive.

Here is a link that might be useful: Seminis varieties- avoid these and IMO the companies that carry them!

"If people are selling you seed that says Non-GMO on them when GMO seeds are not available, what's that tell you about them? You actually make a very good point - it's 'organic' seed vendors who are CAUSING people to be concerned about GMO vegetable seeds - that don't exist. Personally, I would never buy from a vendor who engages in that kind of scare tactic to make a buck."

I disagree. I think it is the companies in bed with Monsanto, endless commercial companies too many to list, that are the ones big into that meaningless Safe Seed Pledge. All that hoopla obscures the fact that they are still giving Monsanto money. These varieties can be 'organic' too , but IMO a truly organic person will not grow Candy onions or Cheddar cauliflower, etc, because they are supporting the opposite of organic with their purchase. I also feel to be organic, and move to being ever more organic, they should try to save some of their own seeds and thus grow less hybrids. I still grow some hybrids but only if I have to. I don't like the big business seed companies to have me by the _____.

Okay, Dave -- points well taken, and post edited for (hopefully) clarity and non-hysteria. :)
My goal was not to dive into the GM morass, but only to make sure no one felt dumb about asking questions--to show that the issue was more complex than black and white.

Just to be the voice of dissent here, but I would personally buy GMO seed if it were available to me.

Is there a down side to using GMO seeds in one's home garden?

I don't know what to think about GMO. My gut says to stay away, and of course, as has been said, we can't actually buy GMO seed.

The scientific side of me thinks the CONCEPT is very cool. The concern that people have is that there is something else that is changed by adding/splicing genes and trying to create a FrankenPlant, and we don't really know the answer to that, since there is SO MUCH propaganda on BOTH sides of this issue, it's hard to tell where the truth lies.

What do I do? I PREFER to order from companies who source seeds from companies that don't also sell or produce GMO products, but I don't get insane about it.

I like Burpee for seeds - and they probably have the farthest relationship to Monsanto of any major player out there, save for a few heirloom only companies (although Monsanto subsidiaries have bought rights to a few heirloom varieties too, I think).

There were some accusations flying around that Burpee owned/was owned by Monsanto, but the relationship is very tenuous - basically, one of the relatives of the owner of Burpee once owned a company that was eventually bought by a Monstanto subsidiary, but by the time Monsanto was involved, the Burpee/relatives were already out of it.

However, companies like Gurney's have a more direct relationship, but, even there, if they have something I am looking for that nobody else does, I'll buy it.

Burpee sells Seminis seeds so the money goes to Monsanto.

Dave's Garden is a great place to check out the reputation of a company.

IF you could even buy them then it would be a personal choice. All the hype, hoopla, and propaganda on both sides of the issue is readily available all over the web (including all sorts of previous heated discussions on the forums here.)

Do some searching and reading and then make your own decision.

Dave

pinetree has smaller prices, and the packets are sized to match. if you don't need or want a full-sized packet, go for it.

can't stand Baker Creek. absolutely. cannot. stand. if you want odd varieties, this is for you. just one of several places that imply they are the only ones working to save old varieties.

have to have the Johnny's catalog. order very little from it, but have to have it. loads of info, some ideas and tools that are very useful.

territorial for garlic. and some other stuff. good varieties, a bit high on price

I've pretty much settled on Jung's and Schumway's, with some exceptions based on a number of factors, including price, quantity, shipping, and varieties offered.

I once made a chart of prices for most varieties offered from about twenty different catalogs, and I tried to get the best value for the size. Jung's and Schumway's were almost always in the running for best price, Johnny's was often a little behind them, but this evened out the more you ordered. other places would sometimes beat the price on a single item or two, but unless you are really planting A LOT, shipping eats you up quickly.

a word about GMO...in one sense, nearly every fruit and vegetable grown is modified in some way, and has been for thousands of years. you go talk to people who work in breeding new varieties, this is just the next step in the process. Once, it was widely believed the earth was the center of the universe, and those who dared to suggest otherwise were demonized. Today, we stand on a similar precipice. Revolutionary or revolting?

Sometimes I wonder what it would have been like to be in a tavern during Galileo's life, to hear the discussions about the radical idea that the earth revolved around the sun, and the posturing of people who really had no idea what they were talking about, but they fervently believed, whether they thought him a true genius or a heretic. And I think we could be the same people, using different terms, and wearing different clothes, but utilizing the same rhetoric. How will history remember the idealism we cling to so desperately, or the willingness with which we accept new applications of technologies?

Fedco is even cheaper. I often do price comparisons with a calculator.

Vegetables have been bred using other varieties of similar vegetables, not had genes spliced in from other organisms by way of viruses or bacteria.

ouch, hate to do this to you minnie, but technically, your statement is not correct. Virtually all plants and animals have snippets of dna from viruses (or mycoplasma for plants) that have been incorporated into the genome. The chimpanzee is an example of an animal which has over 120 copies of the entire genome of a single virus. The virus is extinct, but the dna it contributed to the chimp lives on and on. If you limited your statement to dna manipulation by humans, then I would agree.

DarJones

Ebay. It is my go to place now. My second favorite place is Burpee.

This post was edited by pretty.gurl on Sat, Jan 19, 13 at 19:56

Whatever Darrell.

I've had good luck with seed from Shumway's. Their catalog has an "old-fashion" feel and look and their prices are pretty reasonable. They don't have a whole lot of varieties, though. But what I've ordered from them has always done well. Last year I even used leftover seed from the previous year and everything germinated.

Edie

thanks for your fantastic list Darjones.

strobiculate wrote...

>>>>

Interesting comment. Not sure what you don't like about them, but I remember making a note in one of my "seed databases" about their shipping prices. I don't remember the details of the order, but it was probably 5 or so packets of seed and the shipping charge was something like $1.50 for the entire order.

On the other hand, last year I ordered a few packets of seed from Territorial and the shipping charge was 7 dollars and some change. Minutes after I placed the order I realized I forgot something and called back to add to my order and I could't because "it already went to the warehouse". The shipping charge for the single packet of seed was another 7 bucks! I didn't order the extra seed.

I guess that's the real lesson. You can save a bunch of money shopping around for your seeds, but you can blow the savings on shipping costs or additional orders if you forget something.

I like to buy from Johnny's and Pinetree but they're relatively local to me. If they say it grew well in their trial gardens in Maine, I'm reasonably certain it should stand a chance in my garden. I also buy seed packets at the local stores too. Sometimes I think there should be something like a seed-buyers anonymous program for people like me. "I went to Ocean State to buy some chips and saw the seeds were 50% off. I just bought a couple more."

Here's a list of places I've ordered from in the past and have been quite happy with

Baker's Creek - heirlooms
Seed Saver's Exchange - heirlooms
Southern Exposure Seed Exchange - heirloom
Fedco Seeds
Botanical Interests
Johnny's Selected Seeds
Territorial Seeds
Jonny Scheepers Kitchen Garden Seeds

Below is a link to an old thread regarding companies linked to Monsanto. Please read thru the WHOLE thread as some companies were inaccurately put on the list.

Here is a link that might be useful: Monsanto / Seminis / Territorial Seeds

I have been comparing prices and found Southern State to be much cheaper than Jung, Feco and Johnny's for a lot of seeds-especially green beans.

Are you finding cheaper prices than Southern States??

Botanical Delight in Colorado. Quite a few and very unique seeds.

I don't think Territorial carries seminis seed anymore.

It took a little work, but I got Johnny's taken off the list below.

Here is a link that might be useful: Monsanto free seed companies

I forgot about Peace, Nichols and Sandhill Preservation. I've had good luck with these companies too!

I've ordered from Pinetree but have had poor germination rates with their seeds. Has anyone else had this problem? I'm not a newbie. So I do know things about seed storage and how to start seeds.

Botanical Interest

www.botanicalinterest.com

Some very interesting seeds

I seem to have had some poor germination with Pinetree seeds.

The thing is that you cannot just compare price on the same named varieties if you are interested in getting seeds of high quality, as the OP was. I highly recommend Steve Solomon's book "Gardening When it Counts" for an illuminating account of the the nature of the seed industry from someone who should know, as he begun Territorial Seeds. Solomon emphasizes that companies that do the bulk of their business selling to farmers or market gardeners can be expected to sell a higher quality of seed than other companies selling the same variety -- seed that they have trialed and that has high germination rates and few off types. Many of the companies devoted to selling heirlooms do not do this kind of business but cater primarily to the home gardener. They are not going to get sued if their seed is of poor quality, since their customers have only sunk a few bucks into seed, not thousands of dollars, and their customers are more likely to blame themselves for poor germination than the company for selling them low quality seed. Solomon also explains the difficulty in maintaining the quality of open-pollinated seeds so that they remain true to type. This is especially true for brassica seed and that of other out crossing plants. In his view this had led to the deterioration of many heirloom varieties. My experience has been that indeed for things like broccoli there is a big difference in quality between open-pollinated varieties and hybrids, with the latter being of a much higher quality. These considerations apply to a lesser degree for plants like tomatoes or beans that don't out cross.

So when I buy stuff like brassica seed, I prefer to buy hybrid seed from companies that do a significant business with farmers -- such as Stokes or Johnny's. If I were worried about my money going to Monsanto, I'd stick with Johnny's, which apparently is phasing out its Seminis stock. I also prefer to buy seed from good companies in my general area, which is Maryland. Fedco, for example, is a reputable company, but it is oriented to northern growers, and simply does not sell varieties that only do well in a more southerly region. So from Southern Exposure in Virginia I'm happy to buy things like tomato or bean seed and always get good quality.

I've also had good experiences buying from some of the vendors of Italian seed online. In general, European companies provide much more seed per dollar than high quality US companies, which are all very stingy with the amount of seed you get in a packet. I do not know whether these European companies sell seed from Monsanto affiliates; it is quite possible that they do.

Not possible to buy gmo vegetable seed??? do your consider corn a vegetable? if so its probably gmo corn your planting. Baker creek says that over 50% of the heirloom corn they get from there suppliers has been contaminated with gmo. They test every batch before selling it and more than half are rejected before sale. Also it is believed that China currently has several vegetable crops with gmo genetics such as cabbage and eggplant. And with probably 75% of seed sold in North america a product from over seas it could also be gmo.

Baker creek says that over 50% of the heirloom corn they get from there suppliers has been contaminated with gmo. They test every batch before selling it and more than half are rejected before sale.

Also it is believed that China currently has several vegetable crops with gmo genetics such as cabbage and eggplant. And with probably 75% of seed sold in North america a product from over seas it could also be gmo.

Cite some documentation for those claims please.

Dave

I don't consider possible contamination of corn seed as buying GMO seed. You have to be a pro farmer to buy GMO corn seed. I was offered some last year from a farm store owner (some of his planting stock). Corn is the most common possibility.

I don't know about that other claim.

But I just wish home gardeners understood better about GMO seed not being in catalogs and that the Safe Seed Pledge is meaningless. But that many companies buy Non GMO seed from Monsanto. I really wish that was understood by everyone! A lot of seed and food companies put on an organic front that is despicable! Seeds of Change, Kashi, Nature's Path, Gardens Alive, etc...

The best, most simple thing to do is: unless you have some paranoid fear of gmo this or that, simply go online and have every seed company you can send you a catalog.

You will be able to compare prices and offerings.

Baker Creek makes their profits by scaring the bejesus out of gardeners. I'd trust them exactly the same as I'd trust tobacco companies telling me that cigarettes are good for your health.They are motivated by money, same as any other company.

It's that I don't want roundup ready seeds and someone that contaminates every thing else .if I have to use roundup to grow my food I don't know how to farm.It is not necessary.It's not cost saving it only makes Monsanto money
I don't use any poison or chemical fertilizer don't have any use for them it can be done without them.

But then Baker Creek and Fedco use their earnings to actually sue Monsanto!

hello dig dirt Dave the information I cited is on the inside cover of the baker creek heirloom seed catalogue for 2013 written by jere gettle or his wife it states both there names. it says during the past 8 years since we have started testing each lot of heirloom corn that we sell, we have found that about 50% of americas heirloom corn supply is already contaminated with these unwanted, patented and possibly dangerous GMO varities. it then goes on to state that they have to reject those lots as they will not sell them. I wasnt trying to be rude but we have to understand that beginner gardners often have little real info and are usually getting into gardening for some of the very reasons that gmo is scaring people

also dig dave dirt your info is really old, one sided and only a small test of 2 small samples of corn. wow that ought to set the standard for the entire industry we tested 2 corn plants grown by themselves 200 miles from the nearest gmo corn and they were negative result = cross contamination not possible. another wonderful scientific study done by the very companys that own the gmo genes. I happen to live in Canada where sedlot tests are done on alot of canola and it has a 51% contamination rate in 27 tests in one study alone. The infected lots were all at least 2% contaminated with that rate increasing significantly if those seeds are planted the following year.

This is the first time I got seeds from the USA. The experience is good and bad. I am happy that there was no duty on a purchase of USD 8.70. I got five packages of seeds. The shipping costs was $5.93, averaging $2.9 per package including one of the seeds I could not find in any online stores in Canada.

But I have learned that if one of the seeds is on back order, the order would not be sent until all seeds are in. When I cancelled the back order seeds, the operator promised to replace the back order seeds with another one which is at a lower price than the two combined. However, when I called again later on I was told that it was not included in the shipment because they could not add seeds to an existing order. When I asked to speak to a manager two times, nobody ever called me back. The name of this company is Park Seed. So if you want to order anything from them, please speak to a person by phone instead of doing it online to make sure that all the seeds you want is already in its warehouse so that you can make an order that is good for the shipping cost and below $20 to avoid complication in duty charge also.

I haven't purchased seeds from Park or Burpee in a long time. Fedco - Johnny's Seeds and this year I'm trying J.L.Hudson who I've wanted to try for years. Shipping was very reasonable and the cost per packet was excellent. They also take orders from out of the country.

You can buy NON GMO seeds here for a good price http://www.amazon.com/

Any seeds that are offered to the general public are non-GMO. GMO seeds are only sold to commercial farms and nurseries.

While it's true you can't buy GMO, you can still buy trademarked or patented seeds. They won't sue you for growing or sharing, but it's not exactly "free" either. Which is why Seminis have to have a page trying to reason it. Burpee and many large seed sellers source from Seminis.

That's right, Max. I just sometimes wish people would realize the difference between GMO and hybrids that are developed by breeding, not gene-splicing. I think seed sellers contribute to the problem in their advertising, but because most of the sellers say their seeds are non-GMO, everyone else must say it, too, or the uneducated buyer won't buy from them. Trademarked or patented plants will not come true from saved seed most of the time anyway so I don't think they follow it too close. However, you can take cuttings which could get you into a bit of trouble, especially if you sell the plants .

Which brings us to the point of needing to ask, when is everything we can possibly grow going to be patented? [g] If individuals and small companies abandon keeping open pollinated varieties available, we're all up the creek. And as I understand it, the government leans toward supporting big farms, big agriculture, big seed companies and actually makes it a disadvantage to be small.

I'm trying to use more open pollinated and heirloom varieties before they disappear all together. And I try to find out the ethics and goals of the companies I purchase from to support that rather than blindly supporting companies that have goals that I don't agree with.