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My Bosch is very quiet and cleans so well! I just HATE the cutlerly baskets. I would do anything for new ones.
ker9, duct cleaning is referenced in the OP, 6th sentence under "What I've done."
Kendrah, airflow through the dryer is equally important as heat, else it's like trying to dry clothes in a steam room. One of your referenced points is "Checked that air is flowing to exterior vent." The airflow from the outdoor exhaust hood should ideally have some force, similar to a hair dryer.
Here is a start:
(read the first dozen or so pages so you will understand your goal.) https://www.tagengineering.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/KVSApplDesign_catalog.pdf
From our forum's @opaone
https://bamasotan.us/range-exhaust-hood-faq/
https://bamasotan.us/griddle-faq/
https://bamasotan.us/2020/12/the-kitchen/
stabs at FAQs
https://www.houzz.com/discussions/2328297/range-hood-faq-personal-notes-updated-10-31-2007#n=20
https://www.houzz.com/discussions/5161173/hood-faq#n=101
https://www.houzz.com/discussions/6099827/exhaust-hood-faq-ii#n=113
https://www.houzz.com/discussions/6040827/range-hood-noise-project
from our @clinresga
https://www.houzz.com/discussions/2324336/vent-hoods-and-noise-the-real-scoop-on-vah
https://www.houzz.com/discussions/6417748/hood-depth-question#n=10
Some MUA
https://www.houzz.com/discussions/5888450/seeking-muas-advice#28657635
https://www.houzz.com/discussions/6078111/cost-to-add-a-make-up-air-system-for-kitchen#n=65
https://www.houzz.com/discussions/6184577/need-advice-800-cfm-range-hood-and-make-up-air#28926574
https://www.houzz.com/discussions/6128658/vent-hood-duct-size-gauges-material-and-make-up-air#n=19
Specific MUA safety related:
Heating systems with fan-powered exhaust systems can withstand higher negative pressures than natural-draft appliances. Some types of fan-powered systems are much better than others, however. In order of effectiveness, the choices are:
* Sealed-combustion. Also called “direct vent,” these appliances draw all combustion and dilution air from outside. These can typically tolerate negative pressures in the range from 25 to 50 Pa.
* Power-vented. These draw their makeup air from indoors and are also called fan-assisted, forced-draft, or mechanical-draft. These can typically tolerate up to 15 to 20 Pa of negative pressure.
* Induced-draft. These have a small fan added for energy performance, not to overcome house depressurization. These can typically tolerate 5 to 15 Pa of negative pressure.
By comparison, an atmospherically vented furnace can back-draft with as little as 5 Pa of negative pressure, and a gas water heater will have spillage at 2 or 3 Pa. Fireplaces can start having problems at about 3 Pa. Canadian codes limit negative pressures in homes with atmospherically vented equipment to 5 Pa. U.S. codes do not currently address the issue (in a plainly spelled out "prescriptive" number).
1 pascal = 0.00402 inches, water column
1 atmosphere = 407 inches, w.c.
If you have room I say go for it. My dishwasher is running for the third time today. We are a family of 4 during the week and 5 on the weekends. And we cook from scratch. My kitchen remodel is 4 years out but I'm going to be pondering this for sure!
It may be of interest that the viable mechanical dishwasher was invented by socialite Josephine Cochrane, patented in 1886, marketed in Chicago IL in 1889, and exhibited at the 1893 Chicago World's Fair. Mrs. Cochrane was distressed that household hired help often damaged her fine dishware during handwashing. She resorted to washing the items herself, found the task a drudge, so developed a hands-off (other than loading/unloading) water spray machine to do the job. Her company eventually became KitchenAid.
Different people have different lifestyles. When all of our children were still living at home, we would run our dishwasher at LEAST twice a day. Granted, we had a larger sized family, and as a homeschooling family we tended to eat all meals at home and rarely ate heavily processed food or used paper or plastic in great quantities. When you put dishwashers through the paces like that, you tend to wear them out faster than average. One time, when we were waiting for the delivery of a new dishwasher, I timed us on how long we spent washing dishes by hand each day. We averaged over 2 hours per day washing and drying dishes, because in those large quantities you can’t just leave them drying in a rack as you’d run out of counter space. That time average was with multiple people helping do dishes, it takes longer if the task fell to one person. I haven’t bothered to time myself on doing dishes by hand now that we are empty nesters, but with hubby working from home permanently (so still home for all meals) and me working out of the house 24-30 hrs per week, and we still cook most breakfasts and dinners without using heavily processed foods, we still run our dishwasher once most every evening. It doesn’t always get as fully loaded as it used to, but I sure don’t run it barely loaded. I still hand wash my good knives, cast iron, extra large pots and pans, and my wine glasses, but I’m happy to leave the rest for the dishwasher.
UPDATE - They decided to get a new SubZero. They are now 70 and 81 and my mom decided at this age she didn't want to risk it breaking down at an inopportune time in the future when it would be challenging for them to deal with shopping for a replacement. They were quoted a 6 month wait time but it arrived after only 7 weeks. Peace of mind.
Bluestar is an interesting recommendation. We don't have a local dealer, so would have to go an hour to see them. But I'm surprised the price is really not different than Viking or Wolf.
BPMBA - we looked at Thermador, but didn't love the touch interface - setting the timer was a pain because you had to scroll to the time, and every time we did it, it went to far, and then it was annoying to get it to go back a few minutes. And even turning on the light and other basic items - i was having to press three different times before i managed to get the light to go on. Maybe you will convince me it is not that bad?? I do like the look of thermador.
But all of this begs the question.... Is there any real value to a more expensive wall oven? Or is it purely aesthetics?
WIth cooktops and fridges, I see better value spending more money. But I've had cheap ovens, and they heat just the same as expensive ovens. So maybe this is somewhere I just save my money?
We purchased a machine which Miele advertises as lasting 20 years. After less than 10 years it stopped draining and we spent $350 for a tech to come out. That process took several calls alone as Miele doesn't seem to know who it contracts with for service. Tech stated no spare parts available anymore. After multiple calls to Miele we have NO RESPONSE to our complaint and no functioning washer.
We will not purchase another Miele - save the money and buy a competitor for a fraction of the price. Why pay more if they do not last what Miele advertises?
For that size kitchen i would go with 30” - it is fairly simple to add countertop options if you need extra space for an annual holiday meal or two but no need to have all that size for the rest of the year
I gave up. I’m in Canada and it had to come from the UK, via the US and I was quoted $1200-1800 to fix it. Found a new range instead LOL
There are services that repair appliance boards. My mother's 2005 Whirlpool wall oven had the board fail in 2011. I sent the board to one of the services. It's 19yo now, continues working nicely.
Ok thank you! I had assumed a motherboard problem was fatal. I will definitely explore the possibility of a repair. I am strangely attached to this old clunker!
I might eventually go for a double oven, but that could only happen in the context of a full kitchen redo; they wouldn’t fit now. I would be very happy to be able to repair this oven so I can buy time to make big decisions like that.
We have 2 Blue Star gas ranges (a Platinum and a RNB) and are very happy with them. DH loves the high BTU burners and the ease of cleaning. Ours take about 20 minutes to preheat. We've have the Platinum for 7 years and have never had an issue with it. It's at our primary home and we also have a 30" Thermador electric wall oven. We use the Blue Star most of the time but if we're cooking for a crowd then the extra oven is handy.
At our vacation home we installed a 30" RNB about 3 years ago. Again - no complaints or issues with it. The RNB has an option to have the door hinged on one side and then it opens like a refrigerator door. We paid extra for that but since DH and I are older it makes accessing and cleaning the oven much easier.
Both kitchens have BlueStar hoods with make-up air.
Interesting that you mentioned Bluestar. They now offer a new column series for both refrigerators and freezers that you can order panel ready, stainless steel, or in custom colors. If you were interested in having your refrigerator match your range, you could actually have it custom matched if you so desired. Or you could panel them. As for the TRUE brand, they continue to not offer panel versions.
The Bosch Benchmark that wdccruise mentions is not the same as the Gaggenau french door. Well, ok, I guess they are both french door refrigerators--so there is that.
If you are doing integrated, why would you want handles? The Bosch has handles on the outside that scream "I am a refrigerator". The Gaggenau does not.
The Bosch has the plastic inside compartment holders. The Gaggenau does not.
I don't know what else is different, but those differences were enough for me. Perhaps those things don't matter to you for the price difference involved. Given that I am going to be looking and using this refrigerator mulitiple times every day, those differences mattered to me.
I would go with the SZ in this case.
I do want to say that you can want fully integrated but also not mind that you can tell it's a refrigerator.
Go for the Bluestar! You won’t regret this decision, it is truly a wonderful experience to cook with it.
And if you’re using a wok there is no comparison between a Bluestar and any other residential burner
Open burners are actually easy to clean. It was a big marketing campaign in the 80s or 90s to convince people to change from the open burners that they’d had for decades to the new (at the time) closed burners. The marketing worked. But open burners are better.
The Bluestar open burner ranges also have the cast iron cooktop which is superior to a stainless steel or enamel cooktop that you get with a closed-burner range. There was a post on here from someone who was advised here to get the open-burner Bluestar, but he disagreed and got the closed burner range. He later posted back that it was a regret, and he wished he’d gotten the open-burner Bluestar. If only the Houzz search function were better, I could find the post
My husband and I are both avid cooks. We built a custom home in 2003 and looked for a commercial grade range for our kitchen. We chose a Garland - restaurant grade brand which had a residential line (approved for residenital installation). When the 36" open flame range arrived it had no name on it. We came to understand that Garland residential line had just been acquired by Blue Star yet the rebranding had not yet occured. We have had this range for 20 years now and we love it with a few exceptions explained in a bit.
M Miller is correct: This range requires a hood slightly wider than the range with a higher CFM fan or blower. We purchased a Thermador 42" (?) with an external blower (due to the mechanical layout in our ceiling) with a very high CFM (I don't recall the value). The hood has worked flawlessly; we would purchase the same again.
My husband insisted on the highest BTUs available which lead us to the Garland/Blue Star. One word of caution - purchase cookware that can handle this level of heat. We went through several professional grades of European and US made cookware that could not handle the high heat emitted by the gas burners. We found ourselves replacing expensive cookware.
The range is easy to clean and extremely durable. We have put the grates and burners in the dishwasher (hand wash comes out better). This deep cleaning is only required when you boil over fluids...over time. We had a few ignitors stop working which we replaced and unfortunately are now hard to find due to the age of the range and the ignitor design has changed slightly.
The lettering on the knobs wore off after 15 years: Blue Star replaced the knobs at no charge.
The oven's infrared burner, if still offered, is excellent. The gas oven has a fan swith to circluate the air for convection cooking. There is no self-cleaning on the gas oven which may be considered a downside.
After 20 + years this range continues to perform flawlessly. We would not consider buying higher BTUs; the Blue Star was more than adequate. As a point of reference, we cook nearly every evening and morning, multi course meals. This range has been a work horse!
Our range last month (exuse the remodel caused by burst pipe!)
I hope this helps.
The data seems very clear on open burners being better for heat distribution, but I was leery of the open burners and cleaning until I cooked on and cleaned up a Blue Star range at a relative's house several times. It's amazing and the cleanup is so much easier than the flat closed stainless cooktop I can't wait to get rid of. Team open burner all the way and have ordered Blue Star RNB for our new house.
You'll have a lot more options if you can convert the cabinet to take a freestanding range, or the cooktop over oven combo. In general, Induction is pretty much the same unit to unit, especially in the moderate price range (super fancy might be making their own inductors, doing interesting layouts, etc., and low end can have inferior wiring and controls). The things to check for are power output per element, which elements have power sharing (same with a separate cooktop), how many power levels (at least 17, plus potentially boost, ultra low simmer, fry, etc. Boost is very useful. Others may not really be needed, but may appeal to you).
Location of the various elements for your cooking style--I use my least powerful least often because it's in the back. Great for a simmer--but a long reach and why bother if I don't have to put something to the back to use the greater power of the front. But there's nothing better for making toffee or melting chocolate; small pan, low heat, no double boiler. Also check the location of the controls and how they operate. Some people don't have good results with touch pads, or have trouble with sliders because they don't have the right heat/signals in their fingers. Others are fine when each element has its own control, but go bonkers when they have to select the element first, then use a single control on each--or vice versa. But the quality of induction cooktops at the most would vary on the quality of the wiring. They all work pretty well. And the forgoing things to check out are most meaningful in the "don't let that in my house" category because there's so few 36" slide-ins.
For ovens, I always want the ability for a cold start without going into preheat mode, which is needed for my baking. Others don't give a hoot about that. Also, the accuracy of the temperature. That isn't such a big deal if you're a comfortable and adaptable cook. This is the biggest variation in ovens, but all ovens, even the same brand, have quirks. Do a lot of checking on things when you first get it and learn how it works and you'll be fine.
So, if you find one you like (and BTW, giant ovens are inefficient, and sometimes the absolute space isn't the same as the usable space, so the FP might be fine). Do go check them all in person and bring your go-to pans. Oh, and make sure there's repair available locally! Ask them about how many repairs they have to do on them as well. They'll often tell you.
Please list some of the many current oven models that have Teflon on the baking cavity so potential buyers know which to avoid. Also list past models that are known to have Teflon so owners of them can consider replacement with non-teflon units. Thanks!
like it or not, the appliance retailer /distributer is going to have your best information about a product, especially if theyre reputable. it is so time consuming to trouble shoot the delivery of an inferior product, and as a responsible vendor these experiences end up defining the quality in a meaningful way. If a sales representative has no memory of a bad experience with returns or repairs, and nothing to report, i view this as a very good sign.
I had cooked a service call through the Fisher and Paykel customer service and the appointment was scheduled two weeks after I called. I had an SMS the previous day stating that the technician will not be able to come and next appointment will be after about a month. I called Fisher and Paykel to tell that that we are having guests for Easter and it was essential to complete the service (required changing the freezer door seal) and I was told that most customers rely on theri second fridge and therefore, it is quote normal to take a month for a technician to attend to the job. We were trying to be loyal customers by relying on the company for service and parts but was very disllusioned by the total local of concern for customers. Never expected to have such a terrible experience from an organisation with a brand name like Fisher and Paykel (I was told that the refridgerator business was sold few years ago though the brand name continues)
I had booked a service call through the Fisher and Paykel customer service and the appointment was scheduled two weeks after I called. I had an SMS the previous day stating that the technician will not be able to come and next appointment will be after about a month. I called Fisher and Paykel to tell that that we are having guests for Easter and it was essential to complete the service (required changing the freezer door seal) and I was told that most customers rely on theri second fridge and therefore, it is quote normal to take a month for a technician to attend to the job. We were trying to be loyal customers by relying on the company for service and parts but was very disllusioned by the total local of concern for customers. Never expected to have such a terrible experience from an organisation with a brand name like Fisher and Paykel (I was told that the refridgerator business was sold few years ago though the brand name continues)
The wheels on the bosch dishwasher both upper and lower racks break constantly. we have replaced them every couple weeks. My husband is furious about thisvdesign flaw!
i would really look at service availabilty for both of your choices . Selling is one thing, but service is another . Also search this forum for service on any of these mfgs . I seem to remember that Fulgor got beat up badly
My recent calls to service have NOT been great. SKS advertises special service. This time I requested a SKS service person. There IS a difference. The last service person was LG and made excuses for everything. I originally started with an LG fridge but sent TWO back and finally upgraded to SKS which I LOVE. The service tech will be here tomorrow and I just got the typical LG TEXT giving me a list of things to try and then stating" You may be charged for this service". !!! They seem to be blending SKS with LG. We are suppose to have SKS service with NO hassle. Very irritating.
Bosch does not stand behind its appliances. They are shoddily engineered, built and the customer service is terrible. Stay away from Bosch.
Bosch provides attricious customer service. Being told your issue is being forwarded to management is the kiss of death. I will never buy another Bosch appliance!