I am really enjoying this discussion! Rosefolly, again, passion. Yes, if you really long for alpines, I certainly wouldn't tell you not to grow them. Gardening is about passion, after all! It's always up to the individual gardener to decide how much he/she wants to invest in growing a given plant, and what degree of success will be satisfactory. My own tendency, which is partly philosophical and partly temperamental, is to try to adapt myself to my conditions. I'll dig and mulch and weed and water at the start, and I site plants with great care, but I won't go much further, with irrigation systems or winter protection, for example. My garden philosophy isn't everybody's, though, and there's no reason it should be. Part of my joy is meeting the challenge of adaptation; another gardener's might be the challenge of impossible conditions. I heartily agree that the garden will be a mishmash if there are no restraints. This thread is, after all, titled 'The Value of Limits'. Ornamental gardening has an aesthetic component, to utter a tautology. Regardless of what the gardener grows, to make a beautiful garden she/he has to consider plant textures and architecture, bulks and empty spaces, colors, light and shade. I tend to think that respecting the environmental limitations of a site will tend to produce a more stylistically coherent garden. The assemblage of plants will seem more 'natural' because they're plants whose relatives would be found growing together in nature. When I started this thread I didn't link the title well with the content. What I was trying to say was that by respecting the basic ecological character of a garden site and trying to work with it, the resulting garden would be more individualistic, and at the same time more coherent, than if it were subjected purely to the workings of the author's own imagination and desires. Nature as collaborator, not as enemy! "I agree in landscaping there is too much repetition, but my garden is my own and I couldn't care less whether it resembles someone elses, it's my experience/experiment and not for others' amusement."--greenwitch YES!!! I suspect this is the only way to have an original garden--to not care whether it's like or unlike anyone else's. I totally agree. I also don't care whether a plant is rare or common (though I can get sick of a plant I see grossly overused), just whether it works in my garden and is beautiful. And I don't care about what's fashionable in gardening. Ha. The only value to fashion, that I've ever seen, is that it brings plants into the nurseries that weren't there before, that might be useful. Gray-leaved aromatic plants are ever welcome in my garden, and ornamental grasses not, no matter what the dernier cri may be. Well, okay, fashion offers new suggestions of beauty, to add to my mental catalog, and perhaps I'll profit from the suggestions one day. Anyway, greenwitch, I think what you say is exactly right and very important. I do have two blueberries in an old bathtub. I know I can grow anything is a container, but plants in containers are too vulnerable for me to be comfortable with the situation, except for my succulents. By the way, on the subject of 'banal' (my word) plants--no plant is banal if the gardener is in love with it. robiniaquest: I have an Italian friend whose hobby is old fruit trees, and who loves figs. He says that figs are hardier than they're often given credit for in the U.S., but that gardeners in the States make the mistake of generously fertilizing and watering their figs and so the trees make a lot of succulent growth and then freeze in the winter. As you say, anyone who wants to grow plants that are a little tender for their zone, or in need of some extra warmth, needs to know how to take advantage of a wall. Even here my rosemary likes to have a wall to lean against or a masonry pillar to wrap itself around, and I overwinter my potted succulents in a cool greenhouse rigged up against the southfacing wall of our house. My neighbors have a rosemary planted against the west-facing masonry wall of an outbuilding (in this orientation it's also sheltered from the cold winds, which come from the east), and it must be the biggest plant of rosemary I've ever seen. A protective wall and decent drainage would probably help your fig project, too: how is your tree placed? Melissa

floridarose, I got my seed from a friend, but I always assumed they were something like Summer Carnival, but after being open pollinated for years, things can change. There is some variation in height, but most are a little shorter like SC, and do often bloom the first year. It's hard to tell if they act as short lived periennials or are just reseeding almost on top of the mother plant. I don't stake my hollyhocks, but grow them against fences and the house. I've tried the Madame Butterfly snaps, and didn't like them as well as la Bella. Not only do la Bellas live longer than most other snaps, when they are pinched back they promptly send another single thick shoot up. When I pinch back Rockets, they start branching off with floppy shoots, though they also live through winter here quite well. La Bella doesn't reseed like the other snaps I grow, though (darn). It's probably a hybrid that wouldn't breed true, anyway. Here is a pic of Rocket snaps. Off to the side are some pink la Bellas. Hopefully, my file isn't too large for posting here.

PLEASE READ ALL OF THE INSTRUCTIONS NOW THAT THIS THREAD HAS BEEN MOVED TO THE COOP FORUM, THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF ACTION. THIS IS GREAT! I WELCOME EVERYONE WHO WANTS TO PLACE AN ORDER. BUT PLEASE MAKE SURE YOU READ THE INSTRUCTIONS REGARDING ORDERING FOR THIS COOP. ALSO, I HAVE NEVER ORDERED FROM NWBULB BEFORE, SO I HAVE ONLY THE INFORMATION THAT IS ALSO AVAILABLE TO YOU THROUGH THEIR WEBSITE. WE ARE BUYING BARE ROOTS, OR, IN SOME INSTANCES, ROOTED PLUGS, NOT FULLY FORMED PLANTS. PLEASE BE AWARE OF THIS AS I DON'T WANT ANYONE TO BE DISAPPOINTED. NWBULB UPDATES THEIR AVAILABILITY LIST EVERY FEW DAYS. WHAT IS AVAILABLE TODAY MAY NOT BE AVAILABLE TOMORROW. THEREFORE I NEED TO CLOSE THIS COOP ON MONDAY, APRIL 17 SO I CAN GET THOSE ORDERS IN. I SEE THAT TERRY HAS ONLY RECENTLY REINSTATED COOPS ON DG. I ASSUME THAT WE ALL WANT COOPS TO STAY, SO LETS WORK TOGETHER TO MAKE THIS ONE VERY SUCCESSFUL. ORDER THROUGH DMAIL, NOT THROUGH THIS THREAD, ASK QUESTIONS BEFORE YOU ORDER, AND PAY ME IN A TIMELY WAY. THESE PRICES ARE EXCELLENT!! HAPPY SPRING AND HAPPY SHOPPING!!! This nursery is wholesale seller with only a 100$ minimum order, and they sell to anyone. This is an opportunity to get together and buy some desireable plants very cheaply. Plants are sold in groups of 25 and the price per plant ends up being much, much cheaper than your local nursery, even if you can find some of these varieties. I propose that people on this forum who are interested do a group purchase. The plants can be mailed in bulk to my home, and then people can either come here and pick them up, or, if you don't live close by, I can mail them to you. I've given some thought to how this could work and here are the guidelines I have come up with: 1. In the next post, I'll create a list of plants that I know I am interested in, just to get us started. By the plant name, I'll put the price per plant and how many I would like. Note that they are sold in groups of 25 plants. 2. If you see something on the website that I have not listed, but you are interested in, DMAIL me and I will add that item to the list, along with your name and how many you would like. Please don't post to the thread asking me to add the item, because I might miss it. I'd like this thread to not get bogged down with too many posts, because I don't want to make a mistake. (That happened to me on the traveling gnome thread, and I don't want to repeat the experience.) When you dmail me, give me the name of the plant, the price of the plant, and how many you want. This way I can create a folder in my dmail just for this information. 3. If you see something on the posted list you would like to have, DMAIL me that you'd like your name added to that plant, and state how many you want. I will continually edit the list so everyone can see how many of each thing they are committing to and what is still available. When the number of orders reaches 25 for each plant, I will 'close' that plant. Anyone wanting that plant is welcome to add another group of 25 to the list and see if there are enough takers to round it out. There are some plants that are so cheap that you might want to buy an entire group of 25 - great way to get that 'large drift of color or texture' look without paying too much. If so, just dmail me that you want the entire group of 25. I'll still put it on the list so it doesn't get confusing. 4. We should set a time limit for getting the order together - say two weeks from today. Then I will find out how much the postage will be for the order. We'll all have to split the postage evenly unless someone has a better idea. Also, for starters I'm limiting this to the NW forum just to keep it to a mild roar, but if there isn't enough interest to round out orders, we can open it up to other forums. 5. I will need for everyone to pay me for their part before I place the order. I will tally everyone's order and send each person a dmail with the total amount, including postage. If anyone is computer savvy enough to figure out how to do this using a spreadsheet or something, I would welcome the help with it. Numbers are not my strong suit. All the information should be on the list - name, price per plant, how many, and then postage. No sales tax. ! 6. You can send me a check, or you can pay into my paypal account. But if you pay via paypal, I'd appreciate your adding in the fee they charge me everytime someone deposits money into my account. I'll have to check to find out the percentage. 7. When the plants arrive, if you live closeby and want to come help sort and fill orders, that would be great. Otherwise, people can make arrangements for me to either mail them or to come pick them up themselves. You pay for the postage for this mailing either through paypal with the added fee, or by check. I don't think I left anything out, but if I did, just LMK. Here's the website. Keep a kleenex handy to wipe the drool off your keyboard! www.nwbulb.com

Carol, that's a good suggestion. I have noticed some yards before the freeze but I need to pay more attention now to see what is still looking nice. Rita, I will probably plant 'boring' plants since they will stay nice looking. I really don't have much room in the beds--see photo below--but I will keep my eye out for some colorful glazed pots that I can add. Hester, thank you for your plant suggestions. I'll look into them. However, I think I am colder than you, maybe I should say zone 9 instead of 9b after 3 winters with freezes! Zackey, I am looking for plants for my Florida yard, not my PA yard (we are a pair of those dreaded 'snowbirds'!). When we left PA this week it was 5 degrees! I am not complaining at all about having to garden and dig holes and buy new plants. I feel very lucky! This is the side of the house that I want to re-do, taken last November before any freeze. The bed is narrow in depth, about 3 feet deep and filled with small river gravel. The foundation planting on the right side of the house has 2 ligustrums that have weathered neglect nicely, but I have to prune them a couple times a year, and two arboricola (variegated schefflera) that only had a little touch of freeze damage. Marcia