Roundup and Roses. (And anything else for that matter)

Rosalie(S.W W A Aust)February 24, 2006

The amount of myth, misconception and misinformation concerning the use of glyphosphate almost leaves me dumbstruck.... Almost....!!!

I use it all the time, through my rose beds, around the house, around the fruit trees, along the fence lines....

It's cheap, easy to use and effective.

Where my rose gardens have been planted, in what was the front paddock, feral weeds abound. My sprayer and I know each other very well.

For those who don't know, glyphosphate works by attacking the chlorophyll in a plant. You spray, the chlorophyll breaks down and the plant yellows. As no more chlorophyll is produced the plant browns off and can't feed itself and so starves to death.

I have recently read on this forum about cross contamination when roots of sprayed weeds come in contact with your rose bushes. Wottalottatwaddle. (Wozzalozzatwazzle)

Apart from knowing the way that glyphosphate works on green matter, I have strong personal experience that cross contamination, so to speak is a lot of crap.

Sorrel plagues my rose garden at present; along with a variety of other persistent annual weeds. The only way I can stay on top of it all is to spray. Regularly. Through my rose beds. Often. And where I have my main beds of David Austin roses planted, and the sorrel has come back particularly rampant, in , around and through my bushes, I paint the bloody stuff on the weeds if I am at all concerned about drift. I also paint it onto the sorrel where it comes up through the rosettes of my perenial asters or my alstromeria. Has anything died through this profligate use of Roundup. No, of course not. If people are having problems with glyphosphate in their gardens, I would suggest that it is sloppy spraying practice rather than the chemical that is causing the problem.

Back in the early 90's, when I was still a keen sheep farmer, I queried the use of Roundup and the health and safety of sheep grazing in paddocks that had been spraytopped. The veterinary surgeon that answered my question, said it was pretty safe; Roundup he said was one molecule altered from the plant's natural chlorophyll; hence the ready uptake by green growing matter, and killed plants by causing them to starve to death. In fact he said it was so safe you could drink it. I don't like the smell particularly, so I have never put that one to the test.

Just to check up on what I remembered, twice today I have visited Monsanto.

As my attempts to cut and paste or post a link haven't worked, I will reproduce in part what I found there.

"The original Roundup herbicide containing the active ingredient glyphosphate was introduced in 1974....

Roundup WeatherMax and other Roundup products are broad spectrum non selective herbicides, which are active on most species of green plants. In addition to glyphosphate, the formulations typically include water and a surfactant system.

The surfactant system enables the products to

adhere to the surface of the leaves so the active ingredient, can penetrate. When the...

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HURRAH at long last, Thank you Rosalie....
Nice to read what someone has written that knows about this instead of reading about it in books or papers.

Or that keeps throwing at me ITS A KNOW FACT

Like you I don't have any problem with it, like you I also paint it on the leaves if I have too, I am very carefully where I put it and try not to use it unless I have too as I have lots of birds frogs and bearded dragons on my block, that are always frolicking on the grass and catching bugs that fly out from under my lawn mower wheels so I have to be extra carefull and only put it on the plant I want to kill..To me its just sloppy gardening practices that causes other plants to die from over drift.. Do it right and you will have no problems, and if you cannot do it right, pull the weeds out by hand....Cheers...MM.

    Bookmark   February 24, 2006 at 6:50PM
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I have to agree with Rosalie as well. I have no problem with using glyphosate at all. I don't need it much in my place but when I have used it I have NEVER had a problem. I don't use a wide spray which means it is easier to direct. I never spray when it's windy.

I have used it extensively next door, where I take care of the garden. It was an extremely run down garden with masses of weeds seeding all over the place. I pulled out what I could but have to keep on top of it by spraying because of the large number of weed seeds germinating constantly. There are quite a lot of roses and I have never seen any affected at all.

Used with care, I think it is a wonderful gardening tool.


    Bookmark   February 25, 2006 at 6:20PM
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lozza(Vic. Oz.)

Rosalie, I'll bite. I too have a relationship with glyphosate stratching as far back as 30 years, and I also remember the clearance give to this product at the time as to it breaking down on contact with the soil. That may be true for drops and drift. It's only in the last 2 years or so that I have encountered a body of opinion in the States that concludes that glyphosate infected roots can cross contaminate rose roots. True or false?

I do know that drift with roses will badly affect them. I once ran out of glyphosate spray in my unit, and forget about the remaining contents of the hose line. Next time I sprayed (onto the roses), some 40 or 50 plants either died, or took 4 years to recover. I had dock infesting a bed of R. gallice versicolour. I very carefully brushed the dock leaves. The drift of odour wiped the gallicas out.

Interesting that you can wander through your DAs spraying and painting on the glyphosate without harm coming to the roses. Are your Austins defoliated, and the drift is not reaching the foliage? Have you a very gentle sprayer? And the sorrel keeps coming back!! Are you sure your dilution rate is right?

In your experience, does glyphosate kill kikuyu, couch, and other plants with underground runners, such as sorrel? Lack of chlorophyll will not kill plants that produce nodes on their runners. If glyphosate kills the top, by your description, it will not track through the runners and destroy the underground nodes.

"Of nine herbicides tested for their toxicity to soil microorganisms, glyphosate was found to be the second most toxic to a range of bacteria, fungi, actinomycetes and yeasts. However, when glyphosate comes into contact with the soil it rapidly binds to soil particles and is inactivated. Unbound glyphosate is degraded by bacteria. Low activity because of binding to soil particles suggests that glyphosate's effects on soil flora will be limited. However, some recent work shows that glyphosate can be readily released from certain types of soil particles, and therefore may leach into water or be taken up by plants."
Taken from a Monsanto Fact Sheet dated 2002.

    Bookmark   February 28, 2006 at 8:34PM
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Rosalie(S.W W A Aust)

Good, I like a bloke with teeth. Must be their own though... I'm off to work now but I'll be back...
P.S. The D.A's aren't defoliated, although the wingless grasshoppers have been trying to, the last couple of weeks.

    Bookmark   March 1, 2006 at 12:12AM
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I planted my roses straight onto a roundup sprayed bed, one week later. But I did dump a truckload of organic soil mix on top. Then I read the research. Its probably taken about two months for the roses to really begin to take to the bed, but I can't decide whether its the roundup or my inept care. Perhaps I've just been lucky in that they're hardy.

    Bookmark   March 3, 2006 at 9:15PM
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How to Properly Mistreat Roses: The Roundup No Dig Gardenbed Method.

1. Join a rose forum and focus on rose varieties rather than know-how.

2. Acquire some chemically treated timber logs for your garden bed edging. Wait until it rains before hammering them in because they will smash apart if you try to hammer them into the concrete hard clay of Brisbane soil. Wonder if the supply of logs will continue as they appear to be phasing them out - whyever would they do that?

3. Apply a liberal amount of roundup to the grass. Wait one week until the grass is sufficiently brown. Oops, so is half the lawn. Perhaps I shouldn't have sprayed barefoot in shorts on a windy day.

4. Do not do anything to the grass or dirt. Just pour about 8 bags of potting mix on top. It will be fine. 3 cm of loose topsoil, what more could they want?

5. Dig into the clay and thunk the potted icebergs into the holes. They don't quite fit so heap soil around the bases. Cover with pinebark. This is preferably done around the Christmas fortnight in 40 degree heat.

6. Fret as they go crispy and brown. Note that the white icebergs are looking green, if rather well-chomped, in comparison to the reds. Wonder why they don't appear to have a rootstock base?

7. Apply liberal amounts of rose pesticide spray. Transplant the ailing miniature roses from the shaded bed, oh,did they need sun? The roots break apart from rot and they slowly die in their newly transplanted positions - a dash of ill-fated optimism fails.

8. Read up a little. Realise that potting mix will have the nutrients leached out of it by water. Apply two bags of cow manure, sugar cane mulch (sneeze) and buckets of occasional seasol (hello cat).

9. Prune out the more recently bought miniature roses that are looking crispy. Acquire your first rose splinter and wonder when you last had your tetanus. No amount of probing gets it out and you can't pick up anything for two weeks and you wonder whether you should let a doctor's scalpel near it. You decide to tough it out and do not water the roses for a week - to hell with them. 3 weeks later you begin to use your hand again.

  1. Reread the rose forum. Realise you have done all the dumb things. But gee the roses survived anyways. Fret about planting them too close together and wonder if they should be taller. Research the effects of round-up and treated pine and fret some more.

I've included pics of the iceberg bed (3 months later) and the newer bed recently done using the same roundup method. Perhaps I should mow the lawn? I can only plead that I grew up in an apartment block and the roses forgave me. Joy of Life is budding. Ouch! Now who threw the secateurs at my head?

Here is a link that might be useful: pics of my hard-done-by roses

    Bookmark   March 3, 2006 at 11:19PM
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lozza(Vic. Oz.)

They're looking well. What's the little red rose?

    Bookmark   March 4, 2006 at 1:30AM
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Hi Nadia..No dont mow your grass just spray around the edges thats what I do but not on a windy day.
You have made my day I have just come in for a rest after spending ten hours in the garden Gosh I wish I was younger anyway I enjoyed what you wrote, had quite a chuckle Good On You...Your soil sounds like mine solid clay...I have been making a raised bed for all my Gerbera's but with the rain we have had the past few days you dig a hole and it fills up with water all that hard clay underneath stopping it from soaking in.

I have a square long handled spade so I go under the Grass and lift it up roots and all its instant that way, most of my garden beds are raised with hardwood edges but they are so heavy to pick up at 240 cms long dont know how many times I had to get hubby to move them today, he was busy making a garden bridge cant have it both ways can I... Good luck with your Garden I hope the roses are all flowering soon....I have Joy of Life a new one last winter, not happy with it though, let me know how yours are a couple of pics....Cheers..MM.

    Bookmark   March 4, 2006 at 1:42AM
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Lozza the little rose is Joy of Life. And yes Misty Morn this is the slowest bud to open I have ever seen. But perhaps it is the rain. Its a potted nursery reject, been there since last July I gather and I took it home February at the ten dollar sale complete with spider inhabiting a bud. It should be sheer grateful. It says free flowering, glares at it.

OOoooh I tried once to move the clay via my brother-in-law who hit the ground with a pick for hours got blisters and still hates me *grin* (he also left his gardening tools behind and has never requested them back, the spade is taller than I am and I can't lift it...well I'm sorta exaggerating but its a massive thing), I took the clumps of clay and grass and carted boxfuls to the bin. What to do? The garbage truck refused to pick it up, it was so heavy, so I ended up tipping it back onto the bed (almost couldn't) which inspired the roundup method ....a one year later thingy. It wasn't exactly a successful venture.(It's a new housing estate and the soil isn't that deep over the clay).

Great tip though, I will round-up the ragged grass edges on the beds. I cut them with scissors, there's no pulling them up, unless it really, really rains or I ,er, max my water bill.

In the new bed there's an Ian Thorpe, Kords Cathedral City and Angela, and a DA William Shakespeare (from the ten dollar bargain sale)- all happy so far....-bordered by double petunias and a couple of french lavenders.

    Bookmark   March 4, 2006 at 2:49AM
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lozza(Vic. Oz.)

Nadia, what do I know? Can't find 'Joy of Life' anywhere. Bloom looks a bit like 'Brigadoon' in the bud, but the plant is a bit too "leggy". Might just be typical of Queensland growth habit, eh Misty? Will dig out Treloar's catalogue and see what I find.

    Bookmark   March 4, 2006 at 1:15PM
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Sparaxis(Vic Aust)

OK - the pedant in me has come out, and i can't let this one go.
Firstly - You write: "The amount of myth, misconception and misinformation concerning the use of glyphosphate almost leaves me dumbstruck..."
Yet you are part of that myth. What is glyphosphate? Your repeated mis-spelling tells me you really don't know that it is glyphosate.

Secondly - I do find it extraordinary that someone who takes the time to write such a forceful letter condemning others objections, would go directly to the Monsanto site for information. Would you have, 50 years ago, written to Benson and Hedges to ask if smoking could effect your unborn child? What would you have expected them to say?

Thirdly: You write; "... he said was one molecule altered from the plant's natural chlorophyll ....."
I hope you have found a new vet since then, or at least one who can remember something of his very few lessons in organic chemistry in first year veterinary science. The molecular formulae of both compounds is available on google if you need to know more.

I must say that I DO on occasions resort to using glyphosate where other methods of weed control are not sufficient. My main reason for not using roundup is that I do have a conscience and object to buying from a company that is trying to bully third world countries into using GM technology.

Jan, whose teeth are her own, but who doesn't give a damn whether you like them or not.

Here is a link that might be useful: What is GM food?

    Bookmark   March 5, 2006 at 1:14AM
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Laurie we did not buy our Joy of Life rose from Treloars even though it is on their list not much info there.... Not my choice hubby wanted it he likes red roses as it looked red edged with creamy white petals the day we seen it he is also a softy for helping people and charities and when he seen that Sales of this Rose Support Health Research in Australia we bought it and its his Rose Here is a little about it from their Website..

JOY OF LIFE, bred by Tantau of Germany: This free-flowering hybrid tea rose is of good vigour and will normally result in a plant of 1.6 metres. The blooms have a striking effect with off white petals that are margins with red. The outer petals also carry significant blushing. The blooms are almost always borne singly with good length of stem, so it can be expected that many will be used as cut blooms in the home.

Its also known by the name Tanmixa:----- I am not having trouble with the plant mine is a Standard and its certainly not leggy, Its the flower colour, one of those disappointments that don't look like the one we seen growing and flowering in Victoria it had a huge cup shaped flower like this one on the left, our rose is more pink than red with much smaller flowers also lacking the lighter white/cream its more one solid colour except when it first opens as a bud like the pic on the right then it fades to a washed out solid pink that may be caused by it being in the Sun so long of a day who knows.

I also though it may have been cause by not enough Potassium so I switched from a Organic Fertilizers to Nitrophoska Blue Special (On advice from a Qld Rose grower a while back) and have no long ago started feeding them half the amount which I will do every six weeks but have yet to see the benefit of that as it is too soon though with this beautiful rain we have been having the past few days that plus the new fertilizer will be like a huge pep pill to them..

Now seeing one of our members is all steamed up about Glyphosate its now my turn about your lack of Tact.

Why don't you keep your snide remarks to yourself and when people get on this Forum asking for help try to give it in a nicer way instead of criticizing them. My Inbox is groaning with the weight of emails sent to me by Gardenwebbers, got another three overnight telling me not to take any notice of what you say...Well Laurie I dont care two hoots what you type it just goes over the top of my head, but I do feel sorry for the young gardeners who are just staring off with their first roses or rose beds you would probably be surprised at the amount of mail I get from Queenslanders asking about roses as they dont want to put any more posts on as they feel imtimidated by your replies. You must notice how no one seems to post questions anymore. I Also get heaps of mail from members when they see my photo's on the Gallery asking me what I do to...

    Bookmark   March 5, 2006 at 1:30AM
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Thankyou Mistymorn, I was a bit confused by your photo in that it wasn't a bicolour. It does look lovely though. My bud is taking 'forever' to open.

I did manage to track down that Joy of Life has other names Maxim and Maxime through Help Me Find, but not a whole lot more than treloar provides.

I rather like to think that Joy's rose name comes from the Snail and the Rose Tree by Hans Christian Anderson where the rose justified its worth by listing 3 things that made its presence worthwhile: one being that the snail would never know the experience of being kissed by the lips of a child in the glad joy of life. LOL (mind the thorns).

Having read up a little, the argument that captures my attention most against the use of Roundup is the possible natural survival of the roundup resistant which could promote the more obnoxious weeds next year on my lawn *grin*. I'm not sure about cross root contamination, I don't know a lot about plant biology, but wouldn't that have to be of a 'like' species......or where it has infected root systems of a plant that extend. Can you point me to the research on that, now I'm curious.

Lozza did pass me a hidden kindness of a sort. My Joy of Life only has one stem coming from it's rootstock which he described as 'leggy' rather that pointing out what would happen if the stem died. As an expert trying to identify a plant, I gather, Lozza, you noticed *S*.

    Bookmark   March 5, 2006 at 6:10AM
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Hi Nadia....Yes I seen your little rose pic with just the one stem but he was also having a go at me because I had decided to grow some of my roses in part shade last year ( Right Laurie ) I think he used the word leggy then, well believe me those Crepuscule roses I planted on my Arch are not in the least leggy and as I never put many other pics of my roses on this forum he has no reason to put my name on it at all as I don't own a so called leggy rose, the right word for my roses would be prolific. I am glad you think of it as a hidden kindness.

I am sorry I cannot help you about that research I just don't have time to look up a lot of things either as much as I would like to ( too busy answering e-mails in my spare time from GW's got another two tonight) but don't you worry someone will let you know. I do like your definition of JOL name sounds wonderful from a females point of view I like Hans stories he is a favourite with me we also share the same birth day. I am sure your JOL will open up real soon when the sun comes out again after these six days of wet weather it should take off....Cheers..MM.

    Bookmark   March 5, 2006 at 8:54AM
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Glad to hear your crepuscules are doing well and yes I'll hold out till tomorrow when I hope the sun will bring an open bud. Shade seems sensible. Even in diffused light they're probably getting more than they were ever meant to.
Oh yes, I've seen your arch....and can you believe your pic inspired me, my heart is set on one. That and winding them up trees. It really does mean a lot to actually have some Bris rose growers to ask questions.

I sorta worked out the theory behind the roots anyways, its to do do with soil science and microorganisms. It's a bit far fetched for a rose bed ....we're talking about the ecological disaster of Argentina and genetically modified roundup resistant crops and overdosing roundup to kill those weeds that became resistant that resulted in the death of the soil microbes and an inability to decay plant material. Suffice to say my roses would be long ago dead before I had to worry about things at that level. This organic grower says tilling the soil has an even worse effect in killing the microbes!! And its been proved. But even that is obviously easily recoverable.

At a minor level it may have some very very slight effects on the roots and overall height of my plants etc that could be attributed to just about everything and anything and not necessarily roundup and I'll have to put some effort into using organic materials. Nothing I wouldn't have had to do anyway in terms of planting in clay. On the other hand the clay and warm weather is perfect for immobilising roundup and the tadpoles needn't panic.

    Bookmark   March 5, 2006 at 11:17AM
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Sparaxis(Vic Aust)

OR could forget the roundup alltogether, your roses and the microorganisms would both benefit considerably by a good feed and water, topped up by several layers of (wet) newspaper, and a heavy topping of peastraw, lucerne, or spoiled hay tucked in (as Peter Cundall recommends) right up to the rose stem. Anything that grows through that is easy to hand pull. I prune hard in July so I can access the base of each rose without getting thorns in my scalp, and do a thoroughly good weeding then, and replenish the mulch at that time, or later at the expense of more hard work.
It irritates me that people feel the need to take short cuts in their gardens, because they simply don't have enough time to garden. I don't understand why they have gardens at all in that case - the pleasure for me is being out there and doing the work, including weeding. It's along the lines of having kids but not having time to bring them up, so you pay for a quick fix to take care of them while you do other things that are more important. Now I just KNOW those comments are going to get up a few noses, but we ARE having an OPEN discussion here. Must be your turn now Laurie :-)

    Bookmark   March 5, 2006 at 4:13PM
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No its me again, I agree with you about mulch it certainly does repress the weeds and yes it does make it so much easier to hand pull them, my roses were under about 30 cms of Sugar Cane Mulch which is slowly going down and the sad thing about all this is when I mentioned I was going to renew it I was e-mailed by one of our Members that where I buy my Rounds of Mulch they have had an outbreak of fire ants so thats the end of that idea.

It was cheap and plentiful before, I used to pay nearly $9 for a bale of Spoilt Lucurne but the weeds that came from it caused me more work than before so that option is out mind you only my roses got that there is no way I could afford to mulch all my garden with it at its a 3/4 block. Here you have to be very careful of what you put on the ground because of the Termites .

I try not to take short cuts in my garden but having a very bad back problem and now a torn rotator cuff in my right shoulder for the past five months that wont fix itself I find it very dificult to do a lot of things like bending low because of my back and pruning high because of my right arm that why I have Standard roses, so you will be able to understand why I cannot get down there all the time to pull weeds but I have to manage as there is no other way.. Looking at hubby using the new whiper snipper around the garden beds the noise is bad enough then there is the polution from another of his motor toys ( he will not hand pull weeds ) I told him to forget it as I would spray around the edges, and seeing now that he has taken over so many of my chores like hanging the washing on the line as I cannot get my right arm up he had to make me a little trolly on wheels that I pull around with the sprayer on it so I do all the garden edges and the very long driveway and it stay weed free for about six week, with the whipper snipper he was doing it about every two weeks so a big difference there.

So not everyone is taking the easy way out hubby has also made me a little stool about 30cms high and I take that around the garden with me when I see a few weeds and sit on that while weeding if I have too, because if I get down to weed I cannot get up again ...Where there is a will there is a way and believe me I will always find it, or design something so hubby can make it to help me do things. I love being out doors too there is nothing better than working with the earth and the plants, but I am just trying to find a way to make it easier for my worn out body and there may be lots of gardeners out there that are the same as me and do look for a easy way out but not because they are lazy... Cheers..MM.

    Bookmark   March 5, 2006 at 5:29PM
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ashmeri(Cent. Qld.Aust.)

MM, I am sorry you are having so much trouble with your shoulder still, hope it heals itself in the future.

My Henry uses Roundup to do a 2 metre line right round the boundary fence of our garden, it is a fire break in case of the road or paddock being lit up sometime, gives a bit of a slow down, as our lawn [call it mowed grass and weeds] is usually covered with Ironbarks and gum tree leaves and the grass dry as rain is very scarce here.
I have finally convinced hime of the need to wear long pants and long sleeves while doing the job.

I have stopped him doing using it round the edges and going back to the whipper snipper, simply because I like the look of it better than the ring of dead grass.

I always am wary of any poisons, I still remember the suppliers telling us that 24D was safe to use in the paddocks to kill Brigalow scrub, "Won't cause any health problems for you ", they said. Think Agent Orange, huh !!!!

This is a wonderful forum, with all ideas, some given in different ways, but we just have to read between the lines and try not to be offended by ways of speech as in the real world.

Marion, who has had no rain but is so glad that the bicket brigades round Brisbane have stopped for a while, hope your dams get a bit of water in them soon.

    Bookmark   March 5, 2006 at 6:09PM
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lozza(Vic. Oz.)

Thank you Nadia. Found it as TANmixa (Maxim) red blend of 1993, in Modern Roses 11. It's not like Treloars to add another name than the one originally given by the breeder. Maybe Swanes had a hand in its release here? Help me out Nadie. What's the *S* about?

    Bookmark   March 5, 2006 at 6:43PM
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Sparaxis(Vic Aust)

Yes Marion, as we get older we must also get more resourcefull if we want to continue on with our lovely gardens. I worry about how I will cope some 25 years down the track when I am 80, although my Dad was still gardening vigorously then.
At present I am full time working (from home fortunately) as well as the garden and family commitments with 6 kids. Like everyone else I take shortcuts.
I am extremely wary of using poisonous compounds, in the garden or in the house, but have recently had my boundary fences done with round-up as it is so difficult to weed at the base of a wire fence. I used to have a pet goat who ate this area and kept it looking lovely - I miss her.
I have seen my mother-in-law die young from cancer after years of parkinsons disease, both conditions caused by chemicals used in the nursery industry. My father died at 83 from mesothelioma from asbestos which was supposedly safe way back then. I worry that down the track my children and grandchildren may suffer from the effects of those chemicals whose manufacturers are assuring us are safe.
If there is a better way, then use it. For those who are able bodied, 1 hour weeding a day in the garden is a very healthy pastime, and great meditative time too. You very soon start to bring those out of control weeds into order. Try it!

    Bookmark   March 5, 2006 at 8:13PM
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Rosalie(S.W W A Aust)

Oh Sparaxis, where do I start? Firstly with an invitation I suppose.( Yair okay my spelling sucks.)Feel free to come and hand weed my front garden when ever you like. There is only about 2 acres of it, with still heaps of very tough perenial grasses and other ferals left over from when it was just a paddock.
And because I don't spray with anything (not even flyspray) when I am pregnant or breastfeeding, even the areas that I had about 98% weedfree have had ample time to rebound with extra vigour because they appreciated all the manures etc that I had lavished on my new gardens.
Somewhere around, there is a very unflattering and inelegant photo of me crawling around on my hands and knees, hand weeding my roses the week before Matthew was born in June 2005.
Because a lot of these stubborn weeds have seeds that remain viable in the ground for many years, even when you remove/ kill the parent stock before they go to seed in the current season, there is plenty left over from previous crops. ( That's why the sorrel has come back Lozza)[ And there in part lies the secret to their sucess, sheer weight of numbers] Hands up who has seen a "false break, false germination, false start... (people from different states have slightly different terms) in the pastures after unseasonal rains and there are no follow on rains.... this germination dies off or is eaten off quite quickly before it has a chance to mature and drop seed.
Now if every seed germinated at once, (life for the gardener would be so much simpler) there would be no seed left for when the season does break ... So unless you are somewhere that the garden has been worked over for quite a few years, residual seed is going to keep populations going. I estimate that it is going to take me around 5 years to get this looking what I would call half reasonable.
Now, shortcuts in the garden. What is a shortcut in the garden? To me that sounds like GroundForce coming in and doing a makeover with full sized trees and shrubs. None of that happening here, I have extensively planted the boundaries with native shrubs to encourage the wonderful birdlife populations that live in the neighbouring properties to extend their territories... However because of the sheer volume of plants required, these plants went in as tube stock... I also do a lot of my own propagation, via cuttings collected and seeds sown etc.
Now to the matter of mulching, newspaper as a mulch is something that is severely neglected and under publiscised. I have been using it for the last 12 years and in conjuction with the worms from my worm farm, it has been a great gardener's ally. I have a large mulcher with a 5hp petrol motor on it that just slurps up all that it gets fed. Newspaper is a great favourite.!!!
Peter Cundall is just adorable, ... if garden gnomes could talk, they would sound just like him I think...he could come and live in my garden any day...
Time Factor; well there certainly aren't enough hours in the day, if...

    Bookmark   March 6, 2006 at 9:33AM
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rosesforme(VIC Aust)

While there is a wealth of information on this thread about roundup and its effects I feel I must mention that it is very disheartening to hear the angst expressed by some members of the forum.
The forum ,as I understand it,is here for us to enjoy, gather and exchange info and experience for the benefit of all.
It is a real shame to hear the comments from some members who are feeling angry and put down by aggressive and inconsiderate members who need to bolster their own egos at the expense of eager and helpful contributors.
I belong to a number of forums aside from gardening, and they are moderated very successfully, who soon sort out this sort of trouble .
Are there moderators on GW?
I have yet to see any input from moderators.
I have met some GW members in person and there is a general feeling of resignation and disappointment about the forums and have decided to give posting away because of the few unpleasant members who are rude and post inappropriate and ,at times, hurtful comments.
Thats my 2c worth.

    Bookmark   March 6, 2006 at 9:48AM
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Rosalie is you live on 2 acres that is your choice.I live on a much smaller block of land that I can weed myself, that is my choice.
I definitely have lost roses to glyphosate drift from neighbours and would never use it in my garden.pam

    Bookmark   March 6, 2006 at 5:48PM
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Sparaxis(Vic Aust)

Rosalie, I sympathise with your situation, trying to do it all with little kids in tow, but don't think for a minute that my situation is any different, or has ever been any different. For the last 30 years i have been gardening on acreage, working pretty much full time, often having to look after stock as well. I have 6 children - now all grown but they were once little and I mowed large areas of ground, as well as all the weeding. I still garden on a very weedy 1 acre of land, with ample seed contributed by neighbours who prefer not to mow. Yes I understand about the false break and suffer most years from that too.
My problem with your original post was that you harshly criticised the many people who are anti the use of poisons in their garden, and trivialise their reasons, despite your own misconceptions which you seem to be completely unaware of. If you take time to read their arguments you will find a lot of sense there.
Personally I have no objection to any of you using roundup in your gardens. It is a matter of free choice. we are fortunate that we can make this choise, either to use or NOT to use.
As far as argumentative posts - that is what this type of foruym is about. If I can put my point of view and help someone to learn from it, that's fine. Rudeness is in the mind of the reader. If you perceive a post to be rude, or to be having a go particularly at you, remember the poster does not even know you, and im the vast majority of cases is simply putting an opinion and there is nothing personal about it. If we all simply said "Oh yes you are right" or "That's nice dear" what a boring world this would be. It is interesting to note that the threads do contain a number of different points of view tend to be the most followed up on, so they must therefore be of interest to people.
That's good. That's what we are here for - to discuss, to learn. If you feel offended by open discussion, don't participate.

    Bookmark   March 6, 2006 at 7:40PM
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Hi all,
we can all benefit from the experiences of others by using this forum. Please don't criticise other people's opinions or think that your choices are necesarily right for others.
I am considered to be a garden expert in my State, (radio talkback, newpaper column, talks etc) and will not use any glyphosate around my roses. However I would use it with care (I don't have any great weed problems) around other plants. I find that roses are particularly sensitive to glyphosate.
Some experts in Perth (all members of the Horticultural Media Association) find it OK.
Difference is what makes the world interesting.
Regards Deryn

    Bookmark   March 7, 2006 at 12:22AM
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lomatia(Vic Aust)

I was in Kmart the other day and heard a customer talking about wanting to kill bamboo. She had bought a small pressure sprayer and was advised to use treekiller on it. Now tree killer contains Triclopyr in ester form which is a chemical that can only be sprayed by a licensed person and care is clearly needed. Why am I relating this story? Triclopyr can be bought at any number of outlets but many people fail to follow the instructions or even read the label. As a tree killer it can be brushed onto cut surfaces or in the manner described on the label.
I actually asked the customer about the use of the chemical and she was going to spray the six foot bamboo and wasn't even going to use proper gloves.
I wonder how many people have actually read the glyphosate label - the commercial containers have a label that is around 15 pages - let alone consulted the MSDS.

    Bookmark   March 7, 2006 at 2:46AM
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Lozza, the best thing I can work at about the Maxim/Maxime/Tanmixa/Joy of Life name is that it was released as Maxime/Maxim in the US and as Tanmixa in Europe by Tantau (under it's Tan...range) and that Tantau released it here as Joy of Life. Treloar was given plant breeding rights in 1997. S is for smile.

I like this quote:
The only way to make sure people you agree with can speak is to support the rights of people you don't agree with.

    Bookmark   March 7, 2006 at 5:03AM
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Rosalie(S.W W A Aust)

Deep breath, start again. Lomatia has a very valid point about reading labels, and or instructions, which applies to everything not just chemicals. Of the label readers, you could split them into three groups; ones that follow the recommended instructions; ones that sort of but add an extra slurp on the grounds that if the recommended 10ml/litre is good, then 15ml/litre will be even better...and ones that err on the mean side and so increase the chances of resistance build up.
I had an interesting conversation with some orchardists that I know, over the weekend, to get some outside input and because I knew that they used herbicides around their fruit trees etc. Went something like this...
"R". I need to pick your brains about something I have just heard lately about Roundup...
"F/G" (fruit grower) Oh yeah, thought you would have used it enough ... what do you want to know?
"R" Well when you use it around your trees, does it cause you any problems?
"F/G" Like what?
"R" Well I heard this about roses getting poisoned by the fumes, not drift...
"F/G" Doesn't bother the plums and things, have to be a bit careful around the apples though, can upset them a bit...
[This is where my ears pricked up, apples and roses are related, can always apologise to Lozza]

"R" How do you mean? what? kills them?
"F/G" No , can knock them around a bit though, I have been told that if you go out and spray when its stinking hot the fumes can knock the trees around and they can take a while to get over it...
"R" Have you ever seen it happen?
"F/G" No, we don't spray when it's hot... you know that...

Okay people, looks like temperature is something to be factored in when deciding when to spray, as well as wind speed and direction. Could explain why it hasn't caused me the problems that others have described, I don't spray when it's hot either... mainly because I don't like the heat...

"F/G" What else do you want to know?
"R" About cross contamination through the roots of sprayed weeds...
"F/G" How do you mean?
"R" Well, you go and spray your weeds, and the poison travels through the roots of the plants and cross contaminates other plant roots that they intersect with...
"F/G" laughs here. Rosalie, what've you been drinking this afternoon...
"R" No I'm serious...
"F/G" Then they were having a lend of you...
"R" No, they were pretty serious too...
"F/G" Sounds like tripe to me... your saying that if we go out and spray under the trees to the drip line...the spray that kills the grass will travel through its roots to the trees...
"R" Well yeah, that's how I read it...
"F/G" Rosalie how often do we spray under the trees?
"R" Fairly regular
"F/G" You twit... do you really think that we would be spraying under our trees if it was going to kill them??
"R" Just wanted to be sure...

If RoundUp has been causing all these problems as described; why? Why for some and not for others? Deryn says he finds roses particularly sensitive to it....

    Bookmark   March 7, 2006 at 9:19AM
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lozza(Vic. Oz.)

Nadia, I have discovered that TANmixa (syn.Maxim) was introduced into Australia by Brundretts of Narre Warren North as 'Joy of Life', when they were there. I believe Bruce still is agent for certain breeders overseas. He always was agent for Harkness. I think he's up around Euroa in Central Victoria at present. See him at the Rose Society of Victoria regularly.

    Bookmark   March 7, 2006 at 2:41PM
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Must say that is very Interesting Rosalie, I dont know about others but I ALWAYS spray first thing in the morning.
So if it does rain ( I WISH ) it has the full six hours to work before getting washed off, also it is cooler then..

Thanks so much for that Info, but like I said before I never have trouble...As I do it right.....Cheers...MM.

    Bookmark   March 7, 2006 at 3:57PM
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Go Rosalie! You are right, in my opinion. I am also on small acreage and could not have a garden without roundup - weeds can be head high here if I ignore a bed for 3 weeks and there are so many beds .... one reason I have not been posted a lot for the summer is the amount of effort needed to keep the garden flourishing in the heat here of summer and spraying weeds and spreading mulch - I rarely come inside until 9 pm and well, have not seen news programs for months (I KNOW I am not missing anything). As Rosalie says "that (round up) used with care and in a sensible and responsible fashion, its a great asset to gardening, and it works for me without causing grief. It's cheap, easy to use, and readily available" - well said. I sprayed my new bed with about 90 roses in it 2 days ago and the new renae hedge (thanks Lozza) is spreading everywhere and so just pushed the limbs to one side with my foot and sprayed and then let them fall back - if I accidentally sprayed a limb, I just broke it off. There is never a problem but I am careful how I spray as I have written about many times before. I posted pictures on this site months ago of a bank with a seamfoam seedling surrounded entirely by kikiyu which I sprayed and I showed before and a week later photos with the seafoam unaffected by spraying kikiyu right up to it - this seafoam 6 months later is going wonderfully along with 3 clair matins, all of which get sprayed around regularly. Have never lost a rose to round up and I spray 18L of round up at a time, and usually do that 5 or 6 times in a morning. Then I am "OK" for 4 weeks or so when I have to repeat it. Weed seeds blow in from paddocks around - my main gripe now is the paspalum in the kikiyu lawn - I have grown to not enjoy the brown patches where I have sprayed the paspalum and so have just bought a selective paspalum killer (it's out in the shed so do not know which one it is).

Garden is looking great!

    Bookmark   March 8, 2006 at 5:14AM
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Sparaxis(Vic Aust)

I am clearly outnumbered in my opinions, so i will leave this topic alone, but wish your children a safe and happy future and hope that the emerging body of evidence proves to be largely unfounded. Just the following quite from the article i have linked below. There are many more like it, and probably as many saying the opposite but mostly by people with a commercial interest in the product.

MonsantoÂs advertising campaigns have convinced many people that Roundup is safe, but the facts just donÂt support this. Independent scientific studies have shown that Roundup is toxic to earthworms, beneficial insects, birds and mammals, plus it destroys the vegetation on which they depend for food and shelter. Although Monsanto claims that Roundup breaks down into harmless substances, it has been found to be extremely persistent, with residue absorbed by subsequent crops over a year after application. Roundup shows adverse effects in all standard categories of toxicological testing, including medium\-term toxicity, long\-term toxicity, genetic damage, effects on reproduction, and carcinogenicity. 

Here is a link that might be useful: [Roundup & glyphosate \- some of the problems](
    Bookmark   March 8, 2006 at 5:59AM
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The research that is just beginning is not about roots spreading the effects of roundup, but the possibility that the microbes (good and bad) that live around the roots of plants spread/populate into other root communities and if you get them out of balance, what happens then. So I guess that I might use organic fertilisers more conscientiously in a hope to restore that balance and help out with healthy root growth....don't kill the soil kinda theory. It won't hurt. It's a what might be question, because I don't think plant physiologists really understand to what effect microbes play in the nutrient part of photosynthesis. From what I've read (and I have the vaguest of understandings) they wanted to create a miniearth dome thingy as a test model for Mars and couldn't get those soil factors right and poisoned the whole thing (biosphere 2). So on that, it's an interesting question we don't know all the answers to.

They spray hardwood tree plantations directly with roundup all the time and it has even used by forestry departments in weed control, but nicks in the wood can cause problems and forestry departments have discontinued it because of species implications, some plants are very sensitive to the vapours. I think the problem with spraying near roses is that they're soft stemmed to some amount, so you wouldn't want to do direct spraying on them.

No I didn't think about hot days.

Some roundup research was later proved not to be the case, so on health effects you really do have to look at the date on the information and to be aware that the chemical roundup was previously mixed with was more toxic than the glyphosphate (spelling) and there have been some changes in the product over time. The question here is not whether research proves that it is not good for you, but just filtering through the inf for up-to-date stuff.

    Bookmark   March 8, 2006 at 6:48AM
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Lozza, oops I forgot, about the Joy of Life breeder (yes I do imagine other growers get PBR too besides treloar but ' was all I could find on the national stats on the introduction). He may have some more info on the colouring problems Misty and I are having with our new plants?

I have a hankering for Rainbow Sorbet ,American Rose Awards 2006 ,(ping lim) any word on an introduction? I have a feeling that winter hardy isn't a good sign on its viability for Aus.

    Bookmark   March 8, 2006 at 7:02AM
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lozza(Vic. Oz.)

Pam, "selective paspalum killer". Is this Fusilade in disguise? It certainly handles paspalum, and kikuyu, couch, and any grass, but not Nut [so called] Grass. To answer my own question, Landmark informed me that makers of Fusilade have entered a marketing exercise to refresh the product on the market. You may find it is strengthened, so less is needed, and a surfacant has been added (it did have this, but "better technology" was mentioned as justification). I am interested, as as a very enthusiastic user of Fusilade, what name that have given their "new" product. I am informed that Fusilade is still the active ingredient.

Without trying to tell you how to suck eggs, there are only two types of weeds, broadleaf, and grasses, dicotolydons and monocotolydons respectively (at germination, dicots put up two leaves, and monos, only one). Glyphosate kills both, Fusilade only monocotolydons, it is "selective" of grasses only. That is why it is such a great product for grasses amongst roses (dicotolydons). They are totally unaffected by application of Fusilade. Glyphosate (correct spelling Nadia) on the other hand ...........??? Horses for courses has always been a philosophy that I endorse.

Pam, update me on the 'Renae' exercise. Seems that they might have got some glyphosate on their foliage from your description. Can I suggest that we never get blase about the use of chemicals in the garden.

    Bookmark   March 8, 2006 at 5:03PM
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Loz - I have done this many times before, move a branch with my foor, spray, wait 30 secs and then let the branch go. I will post a photo of the renae hedge in a week or so - I will give any "contamination" time to show itself. If I think it might have got wet, I just "prune" that branch. It will be fine I assure you. My sprayer is quite small and highly directed so the weeds were not doused and so able to wet the branch when I let it go. The 20 renaes are coming along in the last few weeks - lots and lots of growth and particularly low on the ground long canes which I guess next spring's canes will fall over and it will be higher. The renaes are at the back and there is a lot of roses in front - this bed is about 60 metres long and a large triangle from nothing to 30 metres - some pinks, reds and then creams and mauves. Some biggies in there - like Eddies Jewel (thanks Meryl) which is headed for the sky - a large number of thick thick canes now reaching maybe 12 feet and straight up. Will be see the renae hedge behind? There's Madame Isaac de P, 2 Constance Sprys, 2 Othellos, a Heritage, a Fiona, a Hilda Murrell (thanks Meryl again ... I will stop thanking people ... OK??), 2 Ben Brittens, a Geranium, a Phyllis Bide, .... memory has gone and I am not even into the triangle yet ... too many roses ... I hope a lovely thicket of gorgeous blooms next summer ....

    Bookmark   March 9, 2006 at 6:45AM
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I have many, many roses and my husband in the past has caused damage to roses by drift from Roundup - takes about 4 years to recover, which is too long at my age :)

I have about an acre of garden - Roundup is used to spot spray the driveways and brick paths on a calm day. The end of the sprayer has a plastic funnel over it to contain the spray to a small area. Increasingly, the hoe comes out before the weeds go mad.

I use copious amounts of pea straw and spoilt hay after pruning and it lasts a long time. The soil benefits enormously and any weeds come out easily if they grow through. Some areas get attacked by weeds, particulary sticky weed in the Spring, but there is a certain satisfaction in ripping it out and getting some pea straw down. Gradually, by selective weeding I acheive some kind of control, but I am not too obsessive :)

I think the thing that has helped me most has been to get some reasonably defined paths going, so that the beds are contained and the pea straw can be brought up to the edges. I rely mostly on perennials as fillers and only put annuals in pots, not in the garden as I used to.

If there is a particularly weedy spot, then I layer the pea straw very thickly, eg under some of the big shrub roses, usually when they get their annual clean up.

This is what works for me :)

Cheers, Mary

    Bookmark   March 11, 2006 at 8:41AM
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I agree with you Mary in all you say. I am trying to get the fillers going but as this is a new garden, I am still working out which roses are moving and which fillers I like and am trying to duplicate. I buy copious bales at a time but with 5 acres, it is hard work getting it all covered in hay. But it is slowly taking shape. I now have a very very cute chook house (a cedar cubby house with lots of little doors to open to get eggs and a large fully enclosed run of steel netting for the foxes) and a duck heaven cum vegetable garden (also fully enclosed for the foxes) and so now my straw spreaders (my 18 energetic hens) are not "gardening" as much (I do relent and let them out for an hour or so each arvo as I feel sorry for them as they love to eat worms from the garden. I think it is the climate here - absolutely feral in terms of weed growth - it WAS a rain forest in parts of this valley - and so without roundup I would have to move - I spend a lot of time with the hoe but there are far far too many. Thistles here appear in multiples of 50 in one garden bed and in 3 days can be a foot or more high. Multiply that by - many - beds and edges. You'd go batty without roundup. But I am very very careful how I apply it and not blase at all. I often goof but usually know it and I just prune the branch that I think I might have goofed on as it takes hours to work as it has to travel up the little veins of the branch.

Gorgeous day today - I still have about 20 roses to plant - I have been trying since September but it has been very full on. I cannot resist a sale and so some are from that - a General Gallieni, a Clbg Duchess de Brabant, Golden Showers, Gigantea, Rambling Rector, and a few more .... Soon it will be time to move many of them to the garden plan that is now evolving ....

    Bookmark   March 11, 2006 at 4:33PM
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lozza(Vic. Oz.)

Pam, thinking about your weed problem, 5 acres is a lot for one person. And I think about the time to spray broad leafed weeds compared to one chop of the hoe under the ground to eradicate it, with certain exceptions like dandelion and dock. It is so important to prevent weeds seeding and spreading themselves around. Have you thought, after cleaning the ground, of using Simazine every 3 months to control weed seed germination? Granted, dock and dandelion need herbicide treatment, but you might be able to better control the others with hoeing and Simazine pre-emergent.

    Bookmark   March 12, 2006 at 2:13PM
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Lozza thank you for this advice - I will look into Simazine. Dandelion has been a terrible problem but for the past year, whenever I see one (and they were there in their hundreds) I just knock out the root with the toe of my boot and this summer at least I have had a better go with dandelion but paspalum has taken over and I have all these brown holes now in my "lawns". The paspalum killer I am about to use today has active ingredients of "DMSA and MCPA present as sodium salt" so not fusilade. I will give it a go. That is why round up has been so good for me as it is not just grasses on the rose beds - it is thistles and a million other weeds that I do not know the name of.

There are paddocks on either side of me filled with weeds at least on one side and so there is not a lot of hope that the weeds will stop. Until I fill the beds with fillers and roses so there is no room left.

Another scorcher today a workman just told me! Oh well .... It was 38 yesterday and I did nothing in the garden - oh for autumn!

    Bookmark   March 12, 2006 at 4:20PM
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lozza(Vic. Oz.)

Yes Pam, with infestation likely from neighbours, it would be a good idea to try Simazine. We use it when the ground is wet, and leave it uncultivated. Clean the ground (eradicate weeds), and then apply Simazine. Repeat every 3 months. Excellent product we find. Another tip. When not in use, keep rotating the container to prevent it settling. It's a thick pasty liquid, and we want to keep it from consolidating into a more solid mass in the container.

    Bookmark   March 12, 2006 at 11:43PM
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Thanks Lozza - you are a gem!

    Bookmark   March 13, 2006 at 4:22AM
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